Is AI Film Still Art? | Mayumi Rollings

0:00Incoming transmission from the future. Vancouver AI community meetup. >> BCAI Film Club is is really where we move in community together to find out just exactly what the film industry or film as an art looks next while everything is really sorting itself in real time. Um it's been a tremendous 6 months that we've had so far. and to speak about all of the development that has happened as a result of AI film. Um, I'd love to bring up Mayumi to speak further and just say how people and artists and community have grown in record time in this wild new frontier. Give it up for Mayumi.

0:42>> [ __ ] I was hoping that the minister was going to stay for this bit because it's super relevant to him. Um, so I'd like his email address, please. >> [laughter] >> I really appreciate Anthemia and everything that she said earlier on. She actually covered a lot of the things that I wanted to talk about. So that's great. I can focus on the um the crop challenge. So just a quick little intro.

1:09My name is Mayumi Rollings. I'm the CEO and co and co-founder of Tiny Ghost Studios here. and we alongside Kevin have been running the AI film club since January. We've done half the year and um it started with a conversation. It started with a wouldn't it be cool if we could get together and do this thing?

1:38Film is awesome. Our background is in film and games. And so we That was great. Now it's nice and quiet in here. Um [laughter] listening. >> Yeah. Thank you. Um so were you seeing firsthand how AI and the uses of AI tools has disrupted the industry and um contrary to the minister's >> Yeah, >> that's okay. I I feel that. Do I get a yellow card? Oh no.

2:15>> Can I jump in just for a second point? Um >> there are some worldleading folks that are in the tooling, the development, the education components of transforming uh the VFX industry into whatever it is going to be next. There are people right here that are world leading. >> Yes. And and I really want to underscore on that point in particular, we need to upscale like crazy right now.

2:44>> Absolutely. >> Like Comfy UI is quickly becoming the standard for visual effects at what what you know, nobody's talking about it publicly so much, but it's what's being used right now in all the test beds in every studio at the moment. A24 just got 75 million from Google for research and development. Um uh uh Amazon MGM just announced a massive initiative to bring new uh uh creators into the new frontier of animation and VFX effects in the AI industry. The time is now to start asking the questions to start learning how to use these tools. Absolutely.

3:2460,000%. So >> yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. [laughter] >> That's my two cents. Yeah. >> Carry on. >> No, no, those are more than worth that's more than two cents. Anyways um so absolutely we started with this conversation about what are these things where can we go with it what do we do with it and instead of working as we are accustomed to in silos in our basement in our home office and whatever we decided to put together this meet up once a month and have a group conversation around it share ideas share experiences And I'm so happy that, you know, where we started from was this point where we were like, what does this button do?

4:10Let's push this. And oh, there's another button over here. We're going to push that and see what it does. And how about if we combine those two buttons together? So, that's where we're at when we started with a prompt challenges as well. Our very first prompt challenge was a um a toilet paper commercial and everyone had 30 seconds and they had to come up with their rendition of what a toilet paper commercial would look like.

4:38Um, and this is where I believe that creativity comes from humans and from the AI tools that we have because every single iteration of what the toilet paper challenge looked like was completely different. So, I just want to show you some early examples of some of the prompt challenges that we did. I believe these this is um uh the toilet giver commercial. We did an ASMR and we also did um the prompt is appetite to be interpreted how you wanted to.

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6:45So as you can see every every prompt every submission was completely different based on the person who created it. Um, and as we realized that there was there was like a lot of creativity to rein in, we started talking about creative flows and how the tools fit together. And one of the wonderful things that Kevin does every month is he basically gives like a state of the union um what happened in the past month in with um AI generative tools and that's kind of across the board with um all all like sound VFX all of the things that are available and we started talking about the challenges we started talking about the fears we started talking about well

7:36that's cool that we have a new toy, but what do we do with it? And as those conversations became richer, I noticed that the prompts, the submissions also became better. [music]

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10:13bites >> where the minds are always [singing] fresh. [music] >> Bites where the best of all. [applause] So what was happening around this time was we were talking more about community about how we could intentionally collaborate together to push through to find that middle ground to have those nuanced conversations about to AI or not to AI and we were developing we were seeing partnerships form so there were some people that were you know doing submissions together. There there are some people who created more of a collective where you know we talk about work, where are we getting work, sharing work, um how do we get work, that kind of thing. What kind of work are you

11:07getting and where is it coming from? So the other thing that we were doing is we were connecting as people and we were starting to get to know each other and it did become this or has become are you going to go lifts will I see you right like we're starting to develop friendships and real relationships in it and that is connecting us I believe with our humanity which also connects us to our storytelling and we now have had just at the last meetup um submissions that have really connected people to their emotions. Like we had people crying at the last one. So I'll show you that in a second, but I'll do a fun one first and then we'll do the

11:54sad one after that. >> Tiny Ghost Studios. [screaming]

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15:47sad. [applause]

15:51>> [laughter] >> If I have to watch it, it's red pony. [laughter] >> Um, so I want to point out that that last um video as well as the one for Little Lights, the zombie diner. Um, those are from Tori Animation Accelerator alumni. Um, and what I love is that for people who don't take the course, they get fringe benefits cuz that comes right back into the community and it gets people excited about the creative process. Uh, because it is completely different. It's a it's a complete paradigm shift from the traditional animation process. And I think in the era that we're going into, we have to prepare ourselves for both the traditional process to be available, but also

16:47understand that there is a different one that will be also probably mainstream in the near future and what do we do with that and how do we cope with that and how do we prepare our children for that? There's a lot of questions. So, I would love to invite you, Wafers Left here, to come out to our next meetup cuz that's the stuff that we talk about. Um, it runs the second Thursday of every month.

17:12And, um, our next accelerator is coming up end of July. If you're interested, you can either talk to myself or or mage. Are you [applause]

17:28[applause] >> questions? I have answers if you have questions.

17:40>> Um, thank you so much for that. Oh my gosh, I was so emotional to see that that video at the end. >> Um, so your AI accelerator. Um, one of the things uh, you know, I hear from kids and from other people is that is this is this really art? Like do I even really need to have any artistic skills?

18:00So when you have your AI accelerator, um, do people have to cut are they typically artists? Do you have to be like a trained artist or when you talk about this paradigm shift, how are you still how how does that show up that kind of potential traditional art >> Yeah. workflow. >> That's a good question because I think in the past that we the recent past that we understand there's this commodification of art and what is art and what does that mean right um and art is something that you like physically produce in front of you so there was this same conversation about 20 years ago when we went from 2D to 2D art right so people

18:46were saying oh it's digital it doesn't have any soul. It's, you know, it's not real art. And D and then Toy Story came out and it just like blew everything out of the water. It's like, okay, that's art now. Um, so I would say you need to have an artistic vision. You need to have an idea. You need to have creativity and curiosity, but you don't have to be good at the physically doing the art because so much of what the tools allow us to do is understand through communication what your what you want your vision to look like. So I think that's the real reason why a lot of people are scared like barring the loss of jobs and all of

19:29that, right? I think people are scared because so many of these traditional jobs and roles were meant to like you were going through a process. You had to go to school. You had to learn from masters. You had to get a piece of paper that told other people that you knew what you were doing. And now somebody can walk in with a vision. And if they have good communication skills or they have good communic uh good um creativity or curiosity or exploration, they can be an artist too. And then it comes into question, well what is real art? And I personally, it's not a popular opinion, but I personally believe art is whatever you make. Art is whatever you want it to

20:14be. I've seen, you know, I've walked into um an art gallery and seen a white canvas with a red dot in the center and somebody gone, "This is art." And then but it's the story behind why they created it, which gives presence to the soul of the art. So I think this this in the same way does a similar thing.

20:43Um, so I I've been uh in animation for almost 30 years now and um I've been drawing since I was four. Right. I'm like a very important art is a very important piece of my identity and I feel like I'm I with AI tools I have been unleashed my creativity has been unleashed in a way that it was never possible before because a lot of the um barriers just even with with time and um uh skill cuz there's so many different aspects of skills that you need to learn over the course of your life. And so it really comes down to vision. And so the way I see it is that if you are saying

21:22that, you know, creating AI art because you're just prompting I mean this literally what directors are doing. They're prompting artists to do. So you like you you can you're basically almost saying like oh GMA the Toro is not an artist, you know, James K is not an artist. Um because but it it it comes down to vision and and I don't think I think it's really freeing to be able to to just have that ability to put your vision and really kind of see it come to life in a way that um in in the speed and and that just is not accessible has not been accessible to this point. So >> hello yes. Yes.

22:02>> Um love and all this love the presentation. Um um so just just because there's no one here so I can just you know just go you know go do whatever right uh so uh and certainly the minister is not here so I have no fear of >> I already got a red it's fine yeah exactly there's no [ __ ] red card there's not even any here um [laughter] I guess I guess I'm wondering red cards >> I didn't see it I didn't see it so I have no idea what's going on you know I'll keep I'll mic's still with Um, I guess I'm wondering from because you guys are not like any strangers at

22:40all to the pre AI, right? So, so and and that's what obviously me obviously. Um, so I I feel that there is this like I don't like the upskill framing, you know, and again, by the way, feel free to tear me the [ __ ] down, right? Um but but I don't like that framing because there is this love that some people do have for the inbetweens right for the for the for the drawing for the art of erasing and reframing and and going you know what no no the hand's going to be here is actually the next and and there is this love from which they come and it if we focus from a point of like like for

23:21example Luon right if we focus we say like hey um by the way no no there's no there's the timer. Uh if we say >> I was going to say also I also don't love the upskilled framing. I know what you're talking. >> Yeah. Yeah. If if there is if there is like um like like commercialization like can we get to an out thing I completely hear you like sound design a bit things that I don't know and you're like you know what I could never do it and I I hire someone and oh my god I'm never going to do personal project and then you finally get to put a product out. I hear you on that but from from an actual

23:52art making point of view there is a lot of care in the details that makes the art what it is and and I'm kind of struggling with that myself as an engineer like some more artist whatever that what it means to to say I'm a director of my art no I also used to draw it I also used to and I still do I'm not a formula like but like like when you when you frame it that way I always sort of get a little bit like hesitant because as much as I completely [ __ ] on the people who are worried about copyright cuz I hate copyright like, "Oh, I stole my art. [ __ ] you." But but

24:23at the at the same time, if you're a worse to the idea of someone pushing a button to make art, I'll give you credit. Like, yeah, you you're you feel like there's nothing to the process of actually drawing and erasing and drawing again for [ __ ] 10 hours a single drawing. That is just so much different than prompting for it. You know, the ripping thing is different than the art making punes.

24:42>> I mean, okay, I've got two things to say. >> Please, please do. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, the first thing is that I I think there's this this assumption because we use AI that Hello. Okay, there we go. Um, I think there's this assumption that because we use AI in our process that we're trying to convert people into using AI into, >> right? So, I'm very pro-choice in that like use it where you want or don't use it. I don't care. Like, I don't care.

25:13The biggest thing for me is that I want people I hope people become educated on it and understand what it does, what it doesn't do, the limitations, um where it fits or doesn't in their own life. Like that is the best thing that you can possibly do for yourself. And the other thing is is commercial art isn't really art. Like if you've if like we've we've done Barbie, we've done so much Barbie.

25:40>> Commercial art isn't really art. and and when you're when you're looking at like 500 frames of the same Barbie for like three months, it's just it's not hard. So um yeah and and and then on on top of that like if if you are in a position where AI or AI tools haven't encroached on your life and haven't um caused you to lose work in any way. I think that's fantastic. Like just do your thing. Like >> it's it's not going to be in everybody's repertoire and it doesn't have to be.

26:20Kush, this is the heart of the matter in some ways. Like if you ride like riding horses, even though we got cars now, you can [ __ ] buy yourself some like spurs and some like boots and you can go out there and ride horses all you want. Like [laughter] >> sorry, what' you say my [laughter] top?

26:39>> So no one's no one's taking away from that, but you're not going to be a part of the commercial professional artistic creative class, which is actually [ __ ] as my way said in some ways I mean it's like a >> the thing is there's no guarantee anymore that your film degree will result in 40 years of guaranteed from you >> nothing's guaranteed >> I mean okay so my background is in operational finance I've seen a lot of bank accounts >> I can't tell you the number of times that I've had a conversation with payroll two days of how are we going to pay our people this week like this this whole idea of stability is just an

27:19illusion. So like there's no guarantees for never mind 5 years from now like 2 months from now like you don't know what's going to happen >> and this technology is moving so quickly that education is the key like how how can we adapt along with it and and I I actually really appreciate that the minister is like working to put in guardrails and all of that kind of stuff. I just don't know if they can keep up. So I think it is up to us to like use our good sense, have human connection, create communities like this and talk about like what do we want to get out of it.

27:55>> They don't know if they can keep up either. He's very grateful to have come here if like this is a very good like he's like I want more of this. I want more authentic conversations. I mean you heard him when he first came up here. He's like this is the real [ __ ] I've been a part of since I came in office of mayor. Right. So >> should come to our film meetup.

28:10>> Yeah. >> That's what we're doing here. We're building bridges. Right. And he's interested. didn't know who his interest is. So, >> yo, >> we got any questions or comments they want to make for Miami here tonight? >> Yeah, Shane, >> I'm coming your way, bro. >> Fantastic. Oh my god. Okay, we're good.

28:28Hi. Thank you for that. That was awesome. Um, I'm really passionate about art in general, so like I think this is I just want to get involved in the conversation, but I echo the sentiment with upskilling. And I think that yeah, like art, directing, and any sort of creative process has existed for so long prior to AI. So the reason why I'm saying this is because I often get in conversations with artists, musicians, and visual artists who are extremely against AI. And they always say like, "Fuck AI. Like, talk to a human. Like we have to preserve creativity." And I challenge them often times because I say well you don't have to use AI and there

29:15are the inbetweens as well. But I think more importantly there are I think two types of people. There are people who never wanted to be creative and are using AI as an avenue to speed things up. >> Yeah. >> Those aren't the people that we're discussing about, right? Like they just are trying to cut corners. Yes.

29:37>> And if you really wanted to create art, you have a creative vision and a creative process. And recently, I've been creating posters for an event and you know, different visual assets. And it still involves three people, but instead of being artists ourselves when it comes down to drawing, we're just prompting different ideas. And it's been really cool. So if art is defined by the creative vision and the process itself, then using AI is just a different avenue for it, but it doesn't diminish the fact that you are not creating art because you're still going through a process rather than just accepting the first option that comes out. So I guess that's just what I wanted to say cuz I think

30:22that AI is very useful when it comes to leveling the playing field if you are somebody with a big creative vision but you don't necessarily have the skills to be able to access the development of it and massive teams like you had mentioned with payroll you have an entire team backing you know you're whether it's yourself or a team up right or if you're now rambling but if you're trying to play a movie right you need a you need a lot of human assets right? Like human resources you don't have as an individual. So it's cool. It just levels it out. But like it just turns actual visions into real, you know, fully fake productions and you

31:01can still continue to edit it after with human. And I just think that's >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, well, here's the thing like we um I don't think AI is ever going to replace taste. >> I agree. And um we do a heavy amount of photoshopping and manual work on on everything on everything. So So there is a really good human input in in what we do. What we're doing is we're using AI to take out the grown orc. And the iteration is like mind-blowing because sometimes in the traditional process.

31:47Um, you might lock in what may not be the most creative >> avenue or the best output because you don't have time. You don't have the budget for it. So, you're just kind of stuck with a certain amount of iterations. Whereas, this allows us to go, "No, that's not good enough. Push it. Push it. Push it." um to get to what that optimal output is for us and then we Photoshop it and then we work on it and then we edit it and then we like put it into our process. So yeah, there's there's a lot that goes into it.

32:23>> Um that's just in a prompting scenario which is not the only way to get an AI work out. Um, >> this is why Comfy UI is becoming incredibly important because the amount of control and nuance that you get in there. Prompting is like 10% of what you get out of it. It is a whole decision tree of modifiers of trained models, you know, your own trained models through it. It is an entire pipeline that looks just as complex, if not even more than in a visual effects workflow. So the popularization of prompting as solely being an AI output is that balance is starting to counter very much so especially in the professional market.

33:03>> I want to get a couple fresh voices in here real quick. Welcome. >> Yeah. Hi, I'm Zoha. I'm an ethicist by training I would say. So I I always think about more moral questions. Um two things. The first one is uh the uncanny valley that of course comes when looking at AI things and um I'm going to be honest when I was looking at the videos I did feel that I was like oh this is not really real and you know the pe I understand animation because it's not meant to depict reality but when I see people as like AI figures I'm like oh that kind of feels a little bit unnatural to me why can't we just have

33:45real people doing that instead of this um AI Yeah. And I don't know it's a little bit I understand with the film they do a lot of other kind of um yeah I get and then the second that I had was I think the main um issue people have with AI in the creative space is that we know AI is trained on data and data is made by people. And so the issue then comes Yeah. And then the issue just comes with okay where is this AI getting these ideas from? Is it actual artists? Are they being credited? So I think that's mostly where I I've spoken to my friends who are artists. They are more concerned

34:25with their >> They're definitely not being credited. >> They've stolen all the works of all men and women high and they've trained the models on they're definitely not. >> Yeah. So I think that was the other thing uh when it comes to when people have issues with AI in the creative space. So I just want to know your thoughts on those two ideas.

34:46I have a lot of unpopular opinions. So, let's >> I want to hear your most unpopular opinion. >> I am trained on stolen material. Like all of my ideas, the culmination of all of my creativity. And I'm an artist. Um I draw, I paint, I do fiber arts. I am an artist. And all of my inspiration comes from things that I've seen, comes from people's work that I admire. So I don't think we can even say that we are not trained on stolen work that we aren't giving credit for. Because what we do is we take that inspiration, we take what we love and we mesh it into something new and then we call it our

35:41own. So I don't while I do believe that people's work um should be credited, I I don't completely fall into that argument. They used to call it standing on the shoulders of giants. >> Yeah. >> But now they say, "You stole all my intellectual creative property and trained your models." >> Yeah. >> And this is the part I I don't I don't know. I don't know when to be an individual and when to be a part of the collective. Exactly. Right. Like um Yeah. They stole 1,800 of my photographs without asking me and they train facial recognition >> tools on them that disproportionately flag black women.

36:28>> Yes. >> They get it wrong. >> Yes. >> Way more. >> Absolutely. >> On my photos. >> Absolutely. >> Without asking me. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> And yet I'm more creative and productive and powerful than I've ever been at the same time. And like like Mr. Blomac is not going to compensate me for the [ __ ] tra like stolen data.

36:46>> Yeah. I mean, okay. So, I I think there's a lot of there's a couple of things that happened, right? And and I always like say follow the money. >> Like follow the money. Who gets the money first? So, the people who get the money first are going to model tools around their own perspective. So if cishat white guys who have that only single solitary perspective are the ones who are getting 98% of the world's investment income funds funding um that's what we're going to get that's what we're going to start with and all of the upsides and downsides that go along with that. So our job I believe is to support and find the people that

37:35are building the things that align with our morals and ethics. So if copyright, you know, is your is your main priority to um I'm losing my words if like to protect, right? There are people building models where the artists are up. So and they're credited. So like you can use those. The downside is going to be like those aren't the ones that are getting funded first. So there is going to be a little bit of a lag in how good they are or how competitive they are with big tech. So there are options out there. I think us as humans, as a community, it's really easy to just eat the first thing that serve to us. And if we don't want to do that,

38:27then it takes a little bit of time to find the other the other things that we do want to eat. So yeah, they're out there. Miami, I really appreciate you sharing your deep struggles with this stuff. Like your whole like, yeah, we use it, but we're not trying to evangelize it, and this is like where we're at with it. Like, I love having these uh heartto-he heart conversations.

38:47So, thank you for coming up. >> Thank you. >> Yeah, [applause] >> you're not going. Okay. Yeah, I found another white guy with a question right here. >> Okay, I got more answers. I got more answers. Okay. >> Hey, hi. Uh, my name is Tyson. I'm a um artist and technologist. Uh I work with systems art and kind of like non AI generative art more using aliotaurric systems randomness. Um >> yeah.

39:19Um so so especially being here tonight um and you know listening to the context in which AI is typically used and seam with talking about a you know uh reducing the grunt work leveling the playing field um you know it's it's kind of like taking the annoying stuff out of our workflows or reducing kind of the the lower end of what we're doing. Um but but I think initially when AI sort of became like this thing that could do incredible things, you know, I was interested like you big problems of like, oh maybe AI can help us figure out how to communicate with animals that we know can communicate but we don't know how to communicate with them or you know

40:07sort of these massive like amazing problems that we could throw AI at. And I guess it gets a little depressing as an artist to see us just throwing it at like how can we do stuff cheaper and faster and you know reduce the annoying work. And so I just I just want to you know just throw it out there that I don't know who's looking at it from this perspective of like how is AI going to ignite like a whole new conceptual realm of >> film cloud.

40:39>> Well anyway I just want to throw the thing. >> This is the thing is I was like I [laughter] felt right doing the thing >> where they >> in art it applied to like a more expansive rather than like oh I'm just kind of you know making better things or easier if you have a hot take on this one I encourage you to like uh reply to it but I got one more question over here.

41:07>> Okay. Um >> hot take >> hot take is we are doing that and there I think the big division is that the AI tools were created for capitalism and that most people look at those AI tools and think how can I use this to work in the existing system that we're in and then there's a very small portion of us who look at that and go what can I do from within the system to break it apart and create a new one. And so >> amazing.

41:43Thank you. [laughter] >> You're amazing. Um, Naomi, one more, please. >> Didn't we call it a night? [cough] This is more of a reaction question. But >> my name is Robert and and I'm a consumer of Arc. Um, but I also went to Vancouver film school and then I pause my film career and wanting to help tap instead.

42:11What I my what I'm thinking about while you're all talking and I'm nodding along everything everyone is saying is something that I think a lot about because I'm a frustrated artist that doesn't get to do art which is storytelling. >> Okay. So for the million years of our species storytelling was sitting around a campfire telling stories. Yes.

42:33>> And then somebody figured out how to stick their hand on the cave wall and make a thing and then tell stories and then there was a printing press and then there was a camera and then there was a video camera and then there was but it's all still stories. >> Yes. >> So I think that what's really exciting about what's happening is now it's getting easier and easier and easier to tell a story in a way that you can capture attention because what's what's precious today is not money anymore or not just money. It's attention >> and the tools like you're doing at the phone club can let anybody >> Yes.

43:08>> Right. >> Yes. >> capture attention and tell a story. >> Absolutely. >> So, I think we should actually celebrate that. I don't think we should be scared. >> We do. We do. Absolutely. >> All of us all the time, every shouldn't be like, "Oh, AI is bad." >> Because if you got a story in you, you're going to tell it. And if the coolest way to tell that is using these tools, then you're going to do that and then maybe you're going to go back and you're going to actually do a derro type or you're going to stick your hand on a wall and then you're going to tell your story that way.

43:39>> But we should just all celebrate. We get to tell stories. Well, I can tell you anecdotally um one of the reasons why I got into one of the reasons why I started my own studio, our own studio, is because in the finance operational sector, I saw firsthand how many marginalized people were passed over for jobs, for raises, for uh recognition, for everything. And they just wanted to be artists, too. they just wanted to tell their stories, too. And now we're in this era where the greatest stories that we can possibly tell are from marginalized communities.

44:24So our interest is in supporting that 100%. >> Amen. Mayumi Rollings [applause and cheering]

44:39>> in so many ways. You've created space for us to bring the heat. Naomi, thank you. >> Seriously, we couldn't do it without you. Did you guys have fun tonight? Yeah. [cheering] >> [music]